[Alan Smith]

Sorry Anton I just posted this https://processpiper.com/rotating-equipment/

[Alan Smith]

For Crashtested and all those interested enough to visit my site over the last month I have just added another module titled Rotating Equipment – Pumps, Compressors and Turbines.
Sorry if this preempts your Pump post Anton 🙁
https://processpiper.com/rotating-equipment/

[Alan Smith]

North has been the accepted default direction in navigation and mapping for centuries. If North is shown then all other directions are implied . To change it would be pointless and create confusion

[Alan Smith]

Yes a T type and a Y type are both basket strainers. Even a temporary cone strainer has an inverted basket

[Alan Smith]

Jop , When I came across your post I couldn’t believe your former Piping Manager had coined the phrase “In piping there is a reason for everything.”, I thought that was my mantra!! I have been telling all the juniors I have mentored over the years exactly that.
I have always taught my guys that the best design of any line is the often only one left after you have mentaly rejected the other possible routings.Your first idea is rarely your best or final one as it does not meet all of the required parameters. I guess that was the kind of answer Mike Garofalo was looking for rather than “I dont know”.
Not only in the design but in draughting too, The efficient logic of plan only single line Piping GA’s with full flange widths and OD’s only on vertical lines or fittings was something that was only used in The International Petro Chemical companies in the US and UK. When I arrived in Calgary in 1980 Fluor & Bechtel were the only places you saw this, every where else they were wasting thousands of manhours drafting in doube line with full sections and elevations. I lost count of the times that I argued that a GA is not intended to be a work of art but only a means to produce an Iso.That was the checkers major consideration as to whether a GA was complete. Unfortunately in the dumb 2D CAD transition to 3D.those mistakes were repeated with the justification that CAD was quicker. Those who supported that view could not understand that relocation of one line running across and above a rack necessitated twice as many line break relocations of all the other lines.
Of course 3D changed all that, gradualy the logical reasons were forgotten or wittled away and with it we lost the art of thinking about what we’re designing. As well as losing those giants of the industry such as yourself and Mike Garofalo who brought respect to what we do. I believe we are now witnessing the end of the Golden Piping Design era, there is very little respect or appreciation left for what we do, the bottom line now is only as cheap as possible with outsouced third world CAD operators.
With Great Respect
Alan

[Alan Smith]

An interesting Idea with a sophistated solution. But unless we are talking about a highly regulated industry such as Nuclear I think the average cash strapped plant operator attitude might be “if it ain’t broke don’t analyze it.”

[Alan Smith]

I agree with everything you say Mick, but reading between the lines I think we are talking about the difference in the way things were versus the way things are.

Twenty years ago it was expected that a Senior Piping designer would be fully conversant with all aspects of all the equipment he was connecting, including process desing, operation, maintenance and removal. In fact that same designer would have been responsible for the plant layout in the first place when maintenance, operational safety and efficiency would have been major considerations in that layout. This became even more of a challenge when the large North Sea Production Platforms began to be designed where wieght and therefore reduced maintainence space became an important design consideration.

As outsourcing to Low Cost (not High Value) Engineering centers became fashionable we started to lose that expertise replacing it with CAD operators supervised by inexperienced Engineers. With the result that poor quality design is produced by cheap labour in countries with cultural hierachy issues between designers and inexperienced engineering or project managers. Just another example of you get what you pay for, but quality always costs.

The result is that today we have (at least in Western Canada) large numbers of highly trained and experienced designers, myself included, who are unemployed partly as a result of outsourcing. The real shame is that no-one has recognised that we now represent the Highest Value and Lowest Cost engineering center in the world.

[Alan Smith]

Hi Anton,
This is an exptional article for defininng the design parameters of fractionation tower layout. My only comment is that it does not clearly state what aspects of the design the Piping designer is responsible for, it is also slightly misleading in the degree of information that is often available at the start of design.
In my experience the only info sometimes available is an IFD P&ID, a process data sheet to define the tray type(s) and a Plot Plan. There is often no vendor vessel drawing available at this point.
It is the Designers job to orientate and elevate all trays, nozzles, instruments, manways, platforms ladders and davits and then arrange, support and guide the piping downcomers in a logical arrangement. I believe of all the tasks a Piping desinger is asked to perform tower layout is the most complex and demanding. I also believe that many of todays Mechanical or Process Engineers would be amazed to hear that this task can be entrusted to a mere “draftsman” With Respect, Alan

[Alan Smith]

As Anton says the main point here is that the top works of the control valve must be able to be easily removed for maimtaince. How a designer achieves that is up to him, his experience and the circunstances, not a set of rules.
In my experiece a control set with say a 4″ or smaller control valve does not need an offset by-pass as the top works are relatively light and short enough that the by-pass can be non offset while still low enough to give good access to the globe valve..
Having said that every case must be considered on it’s individual circumstances.
I certainly do not believe designers should ever be pressured to save fittings in any layout. Any one who applies that pressure is not a Lead and anyone who succumbs to that pressure is not a Designer.

As for the comment about material handling focus by Pipers Please explain

[Alan Smith]

There are many requirements in a fabrication spec. It is the responsibility of the fabricator to interpret all of the clients requirements on their spool sheets. The welder uses cut sheets, NOT the Iso. The conclusion I draw is that your low opinion of the intelligence of fab shops and your lack of knowledge and obvious disdain for 3D CAD systems hardly justifies your status as a Platinum Member. It’s quality of posts not quantity

[Alan Smith]

The point is that your model is built to the correct dimensions and the additional 150mm is required because of the uncertainty that a particular connecting component will not be where the model shows it.
The designer will place an FFW at this point
Isogen will therefore generate the dimension without the additional 150 and indicate FFW.
In my world I do not allow ANY manipulation of an Iso.dwg after it is generated.
FFW will be defined as “150mm longer than the dimension shown” in the fabrication spec.

[Alan Smith]

Hi Anton,
I agree with your assessment but it also has to be said that there is still a degree of CAD resentment and nonacceptance amongst some of the grey haired Pipers of which I am one. They don’t like it or understand it and fear it , in some cases they even refuse to use it. It’s understandable when you come from a generation when black & white TV and rotary dial phones where Hi-Tech
I guess it’s all in your attitude and whether you can accept change as you grow older or just hide behind “back in my day” statements.
Personally I love it although I was never formally trained in any system, like you say it’s not really that hard and can be picked up by anyone with a logical brain in a few weeks.

Whilst on the subject of grey hairs it’s sad to say that hardly a month goes by without me hearing of the passing of another of the great Pipers, some of these guys were truly legends in their own time, often for their drinking abilities as much as their piping abilities, but in an age when those two abilities were synonymous.

I was wondering whether you’d ever thought of starting a Pipers Hall of Fame on Piping Designers.com to remember these guys. It could consist of a nomination and a seconding process and go on to include our fond recollections and moderated stories associated with these great characters.

When we met in Calgary last summer you were out here scouting for a Project for Ausenco?? did that ever work out or are you back in Ireland now? I finally got work at TransCanada Pipelines, not my kind of work but it couldn’t have come at a better time with the looming recession in Calgary.. 5 years work at least & $42 billion dollars worth of work ! Who cares what a barrel is worth, when it still costs the same to move it .

Alan

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