Basis for Thermal Expansion Calculations

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12 years 1 month ago - 12 years 1 month ago #8188 by Jop
The following is from the Linked in “Piping Design” Group discussion about PDS & PDMS.
“All these programs work out the expansion stress in pipe for given piping material, design pressure and design temperature and given principal overall dimensions. They are helpful in checking viability of a preliminary piping layout. Computation of expansion data, modulus of elasticity and allowable stresses are automatic.”

This is not the only place this show s up, it just happens to be the current reminder of something that has always annoyed me. It annoys me because it is more costly to a project.

Background:
We as pipers try to be very precise about the work we do. We base our work on carefully developed P&ID’s, Specifications, Codes and use certified Outlines from vendors. We even have rigid fabrication tolerance (PFI ES3) for our pipe assemblies.

Here are my questions:
Why is “Design Temperature” used for the expansion calculation instead of the actual maximum Operating Temperature?
Why do we base our Thermal Expansion Stress Analysis on such a fictitious premise?

If your answer is "Because the 'Code' says so" then define WHY the Code says so.

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12 years 1 month ago - 12 years 1 month ago #6535 by Jop
I got this response from David Diehl of CAESAR II.

"B31.3 defines design pressure and design temperature to establish wall thickness. That's it.
Stress and load calculations in B31.3 do not mention "design" values.
So use actual, expected temperatures and pressures if you wish. BUT I am concerned that someone, in the future, will read those design values, assuming that the system can be run at those conditions without further evaluation, and that may prove to be trouble. Note that CAESAR II does not explicitly request design pressure and design temperature."

_________________________
Dave Diehl

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12 years 1 month ago - 12 years 1 month ago #6204 by Flowr8
The B31.3 code gives guidlines to the engineer on how to determine a coincident design pressure/temperature over the operating pressure/temperature conditions in order to introduce a margin of safety. It also always for a short term exceeding of these conditions, such as steam out, so as to not to have to use these short term conditions as the basis for the design. If a piping designer can run a report using these design conditions that lets them know that they're in the right ball park before they make a submission to stress, then that a good thing. However, in my opinion, it is sufficient that we use the operating temperature, not the design temperature, to calculate the thermal growth and hence the clearances that are required to avoid any interferences during operation.

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