Dummy and Base Supports

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14 years 7 months ago - 14 years 7 months ago #5329 by hc
Replied by hc on topic Re: Dummy and Base Supports
I'm surprised by your 1'6" restriction on your dummy legs. Thats really, really short. I'm looking at our steel shapes DL standards and Fluor pipe DL standards and they both allow for 6 feet max to the support and 12" after the support. That can even be extended once structural has done their calcs if need be. I'm actually a tiny bit surprised by stress limiting you below your standards which should have already been calculated by structural as strong enough. Why have standards then.

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14 years 7 months ago - 14 years 7 months ago #5330 by Jop
Replied by Jop on topic Re: Dummy and Base Supports
Some background:
I spent more than 45 years in Process Plant (Refineries, Chemical, Power, etc) Piping Engineering and Design.
My experience ranged from entry level to Piping Department Manager and included some related assignments into Materials Management, Field Engineering, pipe fabrication shop Engineering Manager and Software Development.

During my years I worked with people in all of the sub-groups of piping as a project Piping Lead and as the department manager. As department manager I was responsible for their hiring, training, assignment and performance.. The vast majority of the people in each piping sub-group were well educated, well trained, well experienced and possessed good common sense. There were also people who because of some unknown reason could not or would not perform at the same level as the majority.

The average EPC (Engineering/Procurement/Construction) company piping department is large and complex.
There will be:
70% +/- Piping Designers
10% +/- Piping Material Engineers
7% +/- Piping Material Control
6% +/- Pipe Stress Engineers
7% +/- Department Manager & Staff

I worked with a lot of Pipe Stress Engineers (PSE) and I have worked with some of the best. The large percentage (90% to 95%) of all the PSE that I came in contact with (on the job or as Manager) were very good to great. The balance were not worth having on the staff.

The reason the good Pipe Stress Engineer is good and the bad Pipe Stress Engineer is bad are related.

The good ones got to know the designers and worked with them.
The good ones could read drawings.
The good ones took the time to understand the design.
The good ones knew how to suggest alternates that might solve the problem.
The good ones would teach the designers how to avoid stress problems.
The good ones knew and understood that all the stress analysis in the world does not make a bad design good.
The good ones knew how to be a team player.

As the Project Piping Lead I say that a Pipe Stress Engineer who says that a 4" Dummy support must not exceed 1'-6" is NOT a good Stress Engineer and I would demand a second opinion and ask that he or she be removed from the project.

As the department manager I would remove the PSE from any project work until a program of retraining is successfully completed.

Do it once and Do it Right

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14 years 7 months ago - 14 years 7 months ago #5335 by hc
Replied by hc on topic Re: Dummy and Base Supports
Damn Jop, I'd like to borrow your hammer and throw it down a few times. Maybe I wouldn't hate this business so much.

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14 years 7 months ago - 14 years 7 months ago #5341 by sidjain
Replied by sidjain on topic Re: Dummy and Base Supports
Thank You JOP and HC.
I am Agree with what you said.
But I have seen the Situation here. the Stress Guys are new in PSE (similar as Piping Design Engineers). More or Less having the same experience as of mine(~2.25yrs).
Currently they are very much reliable on Softwares. It will take some time for them to reach at the levels you mentioned as they grow as more experienced.
So probably I should not go in the direction of hiring and firing.
We should now stop this discussion here.

Thank You everybody who replied read this topic.
Thank You
Siddharth Jain

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