Piping Plans and Sections from a 3D Model?

A topic was posted on the linked in Piping Designers group that started a good debate, and I thought it was worth posting here.
Please add your thoughts here.
(Names have been removed to protect the Innocent!)

When a project is done using a 3D model. Is it necessary to generate Piping Plans and Sections?
Is it really worth to spend time doing that when you have a good 3D model?

[Answer 1]
Piping major outputs which are really used to fabrication and erection are piping plans, sectional views and isometrics.
Use of 3D model is only to the designer's ease and not to the contractor or fabricator of piping.
A good 3D model can provide clash free and actual piping. But at site only piping plans and sectional views are used for erection. So they are important.

[Answer 2]
Let's look at it this way. The 3D Model is a "means to an end." It is the tool that the engineering and design groups use to define the requirements for the end, a process plant or power plant.
From it, we, Piping extract piping isometrics for the procurement of material, the fabrication of pipe spools and finally the installation of the piping, tracing, insulation etc.
The 3D model is not used for these complex activities.
Piping plans and sections are also extracted from the 3D model and along with the isometrics and included in the Construction Work Packages (CWP) prepared for bidders. It would be folly to expect sub-contractors to all have the project 3D capabilities.
Sometimes 3D capabilities are set up at the job site by the Engineering & Design Contractor/Construction Manager to assist in answering the questions that come up as the sub-contractors progress with their responsibilities. It might be possible to allow access by a single Sub to that 3D model if it is a small one unit project. However, what if it is a mega-project with 6 or 8 major units, a power plant, a utility plant a complex interconnecting pipe rack system and a vast tank field and each unit/area is handled by a different sub-contractor. Each morning, I would expect to see sub-contractor piping foreman lined up from the 3D trailer to the front gate. All of then wanting to get a look at the model. There might also be a few fights over who gets the first place in line.
No, the industry and the technology is just not ready for that yet. So we continue to develop and use the 3D model as it was intended, a "Tool" or "a means to an end" and extract the proper drawings and use them for their proper purpose.
Does that make sense to you?

[Answer 3]
With the advances of cloud computing technology, the innovation, advancements we are seeing with smart phones and pad computing technology, and add in the mobile connectivity, - I think we are close to crossing into affordable, powerful, 3D model viewing capabilities. In fact there is a link I recently saw on the Dave Tyner site which actually "demo'd" (is that a real word?) a 3d industrial model. Here's the link

[Answer 4]
'Piping plans and sections are also extracted from the 3D model and along with the isometrics and included in the Construction Work Packages (CWP) prepared for bidders. It would be folly to expect sub-contractors to all have the project 3D capabilities."
I would have said that sub-contractors having project 3D capabilities is now a common capability and anyone with a laptop can get access to at least some model information via tools like Autodesk Design Review or Navisworks. This doesn't mean traditional documents are obsolete of course, but the model is a deliverable in its own right. Being able to view the model is a huge help to sub-cons when it comes to dealing with constructability and assembly issues.

[Answer 5]
" Is it necessary to generate Piping Plans and Sections? "
If it is agreed in the contract with the client that you will produce plans and sections, then it is necessary.
The 3D model is more than just a clashing tool that will allow you to produce plans, section and isometrics, depending on the 3D software that you use.
It can also help with construction and erection sequencing, procurement, scheduling and plant maintenance.
Many companies will export the bill of materials in to purchasing software that will allow accurate purchasing information, that will help with identifying long lead items for procurement which can help with scheduling.
Many clients will expect delivery of the entire 3D model database as well as plans, sections & isometrics, for use in terms of project lifecycle and maintenance. Keeping the 3d model current, by "as building" after the original construction phase, and adding any subsequent additions or modifications can eliminate the need for costly as built surveys for any future expansions etc.
On a very basic design note, it is also very helpful to have operators who work in the plant to sit in on model reviews. Operators are not designers, engineers or fitters, and so they may not lend themselves to reading drawings very well, but these are the very people that will help eliminate any operational issues.
Get these guys looking at your model regularly, from an early stage, and they can really help with your design, if the operator is happy, the client will be happy .... usually.
There is so much more than fabrication information contained in a good 3D model, and none of this data should be wasted.

[Answer 6]
The answer to the question is absolutely NO. We have done projects where plans and sections were omitted as deliverable. With complete EPC being our responsibility some Client wont care. But a majority of them do because they are too used to 2D drawings. It is absolutely possible to monitor erection using a simple Smart Plant review model on your laptop and it has been done in past successfully and executed to precision.

[Answer 7]
Our 3D model is so much more than clash detection. My colleagues at Western Summit Constructors are said to have a full blown model on site, the formen come into a trailer and view it.
As for the use of cloud technology and its usefulness. I will need to contact Dave Tyner and see what is happening.

[Answer 8]
I will also agree with the fact that the 3D model reviews helps the operator who work in the plant where the operational issues can be resolved faster.
This model review also helps a lot during the construction where the contractor can easily see the model before erection and check himself for the correct and clash free routing.
But he also needs the piping plans and sectional drawings to check piping coordinates, lengths and routings.
I had worked for design support for a site where i had observed the major drawback is the 3D review capabilities of the actual person working for the construction. They will just bypass the model review at site and work with only piping plans,sectional drawings and isometrics.

[Answer 9]
Hi, I'm new to this group and this is my first input, for what it is worth...
So, with costs being driven down over the years, one of the areas where huge savings can be made is reducing the detail given on piping general arrangements, or even doing away with them entirely. I accept that each project is different, as is each client's requirements, and indeed perception about what is needed to design and build a project. I have been involved in delivering a few projects now where we have had the buy-in from client and sub-contractors to do away with conventional drawing deliverables and using Navisworks, as an example, to review the design process and aid construction.
So, bottom line for me is that if you can, try to manage on a few schedules, plant layout drawings, isometrics and a 3D model.
If general arrangements are still insisted upon, I would then try to negotiate the amount of information that the drawings are to contain. Creating general arrangements with just equipment and line number annotation, and omitting most dimensions (just include dimensions between building grid lines and equipment) quite a bit of time can be saved.
I must add that my experience is strictly limited to using AutoCAD and AutoPLANT.

[Answer 10]
I would not question current practice but what about the issue of saving the "as released for construction" state of the design? Of course it never happens but, if sued, the designer needs to prove what his design was compared to what was built. An electronic model is always alterable, though steps can be taken to store a dated file as a snapshot, say, burned to a CD.
I can't imagine a greenfield design proceeding without dimensioned foundation plans, etc. For both greenfield and brownfield designs, selected equipment placement drawings and ISO's should be sufficient, IMHO.

[Answer 12]
There is no correct anser to this question. There are a few variables that are dependent on client and fabricator requirements. I have issued projects with full blown annotated plans and sections with or without isometrics. I have also issued projects totally electronically with as little as a 3D review model and files extracted from the model that the fabricator can use to automatically create piping spool drawings.
So, if you're dealing with a state-of-the-art fabricator you can minimize your "paper" deliverables. If the piping is being welded together in the field on the back of a truck you may not be so fortunate.

[Answer 13]
I can tell you have no experiences in design engineering and construction. Plans and sections are necessary.
The fitters and erectors do not have a 3D model in their job box.
Without them drawings you would have a hell of time generation AS-BUILTS.
The level dimensions can be minimal on piping because isometrics are not drawn by hand anymore.

[Answer 14]
Laser scans cans not be filed with EPA and fire department.
It is a laws to have your drawings have to be up to date.
Emergency responders do not have laser models on their person.

[Answer 15]
Sorry the the late responses, I have just spend 4 days in the gas fields walking down P&IDs and doing as builts and I am not kidding.
We have some decent sized facilities in locations where technology has little effect.
No one will pay the travel to a facility for a scanning crew that is 75 miles from any city.
Laser scans do not as-built P&IDs and with out accurate P&IDs for safety protocol, facilities dont stay operating long.
And why would you have your P&IDs updated without updating your model.
Laser scans dont have the integrated intelligence of a 3d model.
Do as many people do as-builts as I would like?
No.
For if they did it would cost me much less time to verify a model or drawings for that matter, when you start an addition to a facility.

[Answer 16]
Amen; thank you, discussion is closed you need drawings.


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